Curse

Neo-LD · Mar 23, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

There are some cases that with a vamp, a target has no chance whatsoever of dying. But with the sundering there always is that possiblity.

This is the only valid argument I have ever heard in support of sundering weapons. And to this I say: you do realize that those cases constitute about .01% of all cases, right? And also by the same logic, there are just as many cases wherein vamp would have been sufficient to kill a target, but it instead lived because the sundering mod slept through a critical time period.

In the end its not very important, this whole debate has always been about minuscule differences in % chance to kill. When I monk its not like I play any different or fear any particular kind of mod, compared to another.

Motoko · Mar 24, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Technically 20%, but at least you took the time to listen to my point instead of spewing out "NOP VAMPONLY."

^-^

Divinus Stella · Mar 24, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Well vamp isn't a great choice for flag running since your gonna kill yourself with degen when running back to the base so i supose sundering also has the advantage on flag runners.

Whenitrainsitpours · Mar 24, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Well vamp isn\'t a great choice for flag running since your gonna kill yourself with degen when running back to the base so i supose sundering also has the advantage on flag runners.

What is weapon swapping?

pigdestroyer · Mar 24, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

What is weapon swapping?

what is sarcasm? /facepalm

in the end I dont think the fact you're running sundering or vamp will affect that much a match.

Whenitrainsitpours · Mar 24, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

what is sarcasm? /facepalm

in the end I dont think the fact you\'re running sundering or vamp will affect that much a match.

The difference between a sundering or vampiric mod could affect if a spike goes through or not, even if by slim chance whether the sundering mod procs. So yes, it can affect a match. Even though it\'s only theory, saying otherwise is ignorance.

Snow Bunny · Mar 24, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

If your spike comes down to vamp damage or sundering damage you need a serious reconsidering of your build.

There's so much damage out there it's pretty hard to not only kill something, but drive it into the ground another 50 or so damage.

Whenitrainsitpours · Mar 24, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

If your spike comes down to vamp damage or sundering damage you need a serious reconsidering of your build.

There's so much damage out there it's pretty hard to not only kill something, but drive it into the ground another 50 or so damage.

That's why I said there was a slim chance. It probably won't happen however it's still possible.

Thats Too Bad · Mar 26, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

This has become one of the thousands of discussions that has been done to DEATH.

Sword = Elemental Conjure
Hammers = Sundering
Axe = Sundering
Scythe = Sundering
Bow = Sundering
WAND = SUNDERING.

Im a big fan of sundering, that automatically means im inefficient.

Greedy Gus · Mar 26, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

There's also a slim chance that doing 1000+ extra damage over the course of a match can affect that match at some point.

scruffy · Mar 26, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

sundering gives the highest numbers. high numbers look pretty.

Thats Too Bad · Mar 27, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

It also scares the jeeps out of sins, and many times you can feel the AGONY of a monk when he dies cuz of BS huge crits, thats why i play this game.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 12, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

*bump*

I tested a bit with Judge's Insight, which gives +20% armor penetration.

Hammer crits normally are 73, I see this number repeatedly accompanied by the critical hit *crunch* sound and when watching other hammer warriors in gvg spec as well.

With Judge's insight (20% armor penetration, and holy damage which does not affect the test), hammer crits were 90.

So with vamp, every hit is +5. With sundering, every fifth crit is +17.

5 crits with vamp = +25
5 crits with sundering = +17

Obviously sundering will do less on non crits, which is about 80% of hits.

Remember, with hammer you're going to be doing quite a bit of base damage as it is, so you may not notice whether your mod is more or less efficient.

I took screenshots if anybody wants to see, or test yourself at the isle of the nameless ... I go there to bash dummies a lot for testing / learning new builds etc.

NOTE: Even if sundering activates on a spike, it's only going to add 12 more damage to your spike than vamp.

Byron · Apr 13, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

On hammers I carry both sundering and vamp. I switch to vamp for NPCs or blatantly high armor targets (resilient weapon). So there!

In all other cases, sundering wins, imho. Most warrior kills rely on big damage, certainly nowadays with WE spike. I couldn't tell you how many times a sundering crit scored a kill where a vamp crit would have let me down.

Neo-LD · Apr 13, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I couldn't tell you how many times a sundering crit scored a kill where a vamp crit would have let me down.

Every time someone says that, I'm more convinced its all a load of fairy-tale BS. It never actually happens.

Motoko · Apr 14, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Every time someone says that, I'm more convinced its all a load of fairy-tale BS. It never actually happens.

That doesn't negate the fact that the extra 10 damage you do from vamp probably won't make the kill.

There are too many factors in the match to give either mod a huge credit to ensuring a spike.

Blinds, blurreds, weakness, blocks, spirit bond. You may say "vamp goes through spirit bond and weakness"~ And that is absolutely true.

But again good spikes won't depend on that to make it happen. Start with good condi removal, enchant removal, and good spike timing. Then start fretting about your mods.

Reverend Dr · Apr 14, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Every time someone says that, I'm more convinced its all a load of fairy-tale BS. It never actually happens.

Preach on brother, whenever someone tells me mending is bad I don't listen. I mean mending never ever slows, so over a 28 minute gvg match is over 10 thousand healing.

Straight number crunching doesn't work here. It really is hard to create a mathematical equation that can account for positioning, KD, diversion/shame, energy usage, defensive skills, and everything else that occurs during a match. If you have played a lot of hammer warrior in close matches, you will see that it happens more than you would like to admit.

Number crunching just doesn't work as it first assumes 3 hits. If you can get 3 hits off on a spike, it doesn't matter what mod you are using, things are going to die. With so much block and on demand blurs/blinds/snares and kiting and aura/balanced it isn't so uncommon to only force through 1-2 hits. Now you can try to crunch numbers for this, but its really too complex to get a model that will apply to the game, the only way is to try out different things.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 14, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Isn't 3 hammer hits about 3 seconds ? If your spikes are 3 seconds nothing's going to die. Unless you're just killing things with a hammer while the other team is under heavier pressure than the monks can save, in which case it's always better to simply do more damage.

Motoko · Apr 14, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Isn't 3 hammer hits about 3 seconds ? If your spikes are 3 seconds nothing's going to die. Unless you're just killing things with a hammer while the other team is under heavier pressure than the monks can save, in which case it's always better to simply do more damage.

I think you are delving into a different concept.

In a spike build, hammer is not optimal. You have slow hit speeds and a dire lack of a good deep wound. That is why you see dismember+power attack spams and not hammer bash+crushing spams.

In general when pressuring and attacking, that 5 vamp you get will not make the difference. Again, there are many points in the match that if a 20% sundering triggers, that target will die or have a much closer to death experience than if you had a vamp weapon.

Please just nod your head and smile. The playing skill/ability of you as a warrior is what matters most.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 15, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Yes because +17 damage on a critical or +9 on a regular hit, one in 5 chance really helps a lot.